"Today, Paul interviews Tucker Goodrich, Wall Street technology [exec] extraordinaire and independent researcher, and Jeff Nobbs, co-founder and CEO of Zero Acre Farms. They take a deep dive into the epidemic of seed oil consumption. They examine conflicting arguments, and then explain why seed oils are likely making humans fat, diabetic, and causing atherosclerosis."
Jeff has retained me as a paid consultant to Zero Acre to help him and his team develop content like this to spread the news about the health issues with industrial seed oils. As such, I thought it was important, when Paul reached out to me initially, to include Jeff.
He's the real deal, he's doing this because he understands it and believes in it, and he and the Zero Acre team want to make sure we get the science right.
"How 89% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy, and even our pets have a 60% rate of obesity.
"What is the Israeli paradox, and why has India developed more metabolic health disorders since more people have switched from ghee to seed oils?
"Why seed oils are inflammatory—and how they affect your LDl, including the difference between oxidized LDL and non-oxidized LDL.
"What is a VLDL test, and how can this (often uncovered) test help you understand your real risk factor for atherosclerosis?
"The false dichotomy of seed oils vs. saturated fat—and the alternative, anti-inflammatory options: extra virgin olive oil and avocado oil.
"And so much more!
We covered a lot of topics, but heart disease was definitely a big one.
I've already had a request for some of the references behind that discussion, if you are interested in more I suggest reading this post I co-authored over at Zero Acre:
"The United States saw a catastrophic rise in heart disease during the mid-20th century most likely related to changes in dietary linoleic acid intake.
"Researchers found a significant disparity in the incidence and prevalence of heart disease, with cultures eating pre-industrial diets having extremely low incidence, if any, compared to populations eating industrialized diets.
"Before any human trials had been conducted, leading public health organizations assumed that lowering serum cholesterol levels and increasing seed oil consumption would lead to better health outcomes.
"In the United States, steadily rising seed oil consumption drove linoleic acid intake up from 2% of calories in the early 1900s to around 8.9-9.4% by 2010.
"By the late 20th century, research had revealed that the susceptibility of LDL particles to oxidation was a much better predictor of heart disease than changes in total cholesterol or LDL cholesterol levels.
"Numerous human clinical trials demonstrate that, like smoking, increased seed oil consumption increases LDL’s susceptibility to oxidation, posing a major concern when it comes to cardiovascular disease.
"Like smoking, seed oil consumption also induces oxidative stress, induces insulin resistance, damages the arterial endothelial wall, and increases oxidized LDL – a common mechanism that causes heart disease."
"David Gornoski is joined by Tucker Goodrich and the two comment on the CDC’s unscientific pushing of the vaccines; the legitimacy of the VAERS system; the legitimacy of the FDA and the CDC; EcoHealth Alliance receiving more grants; seed oil consumption and the rise of coronary heart disease; whether sugar contributes to cardiovascular disease; and more."
Dr. Durham: “If you need a family Dr. here in Boise hit me up. I went from 235lbs to keto to carnivore and then finally came across your info. Now at 195 I feel comfortable knowing what I can and can't have and why I was so sick. Felt great on carnivore but can't live that way forever. Thank you for your work.”
Drs. Kerley and Durham compare “elevator pitches” to
patients.
Dr. Durham: “I needed 4 pills based on the guidelines, and I
was 38 years old.”
Tucker: “Lean-Mass Hyper Responder”:
Norwitz, N. G., Soto-Mota, A., Kaplan, B., Ludwig, D. S., Budoff, M., Kontush,
A., & Feldman, D. (2022). The Lipid Energy Model: Reimagining Lipoprotein
Function in the Context of Carbohydrate-Restricted Diets. Metabolites,
12(5), 460. https://doi.org/10.3390/metabo12050460
Dr. Durham: 40:02 “American College of Cardiology article…”
Astrup, A., Magkos, F., Bier, D. M., Brenna, J. T., de Oliveira Otto, M. C.,
Hill, J. O., King, J. C., Mente, A., Ordovas, J. M., Volek, J. S., Yusuf, S.,
& Krauss, R. M. (2020). Saturated Fats and Health: A Reassessment and
Proposal for Food-based Recommendations: JACC State-of -the-Art Review. Journal
of the American College of Cardiology, 76(7), 844–857. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jacc.2020.05.077
See Episode 5, in which we interview Tom Brenna, one of the co-authors of that
article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrQ8q_ctGUQ
Tucker: “The AGEs, same thing—Chris Masterjohn did a great
post years ago looking into it:
Masterjohn, C. (2011, October 7). Where Do Most AGEs Come From? O Glycation,
How Thy Name Hast Deceived Me! | [Blog]. Chris Masterjohn, PhD. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2011/10/07/where-do-most-ages-come-from-o
Tucker: “Polyunsaturated fats are about 10x as effective in
producing advanced glycation end products [than glucose]…”
Fu, M.-X., Requena, J. R., Jenkins, A. J., Lyons, T. J., Baynes, J. W., &
Thorpe, S. R. (1996). The Advanced Glycation End Product,
N-(Carboxymethyl)lysine, Is a Product of both Lipid Peroxidation and
Glycoxidation Reactions. Journal of Biological Chemistry, 271(17),
9982–9986. https://doi.org/10.1074/jbc.271.17.9982
Tucker: Lp(a):
·Hazard ratio 16.8: Tsimikas, S., Brilakis, E. S., Miller, E. R.,
McConnell, J. P., Lennon, R. J., Kornman, K. S., Witztum, J. L., & Berger,
P. B. (2005). Oxidized Phospholipids, Lp(a) Lipoprotein, and Coronary Artery
Disease. New England Journal of Medicine, 353(1), 46–57. https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa043175
·Hazard ratio 1 in Africa: Paré, G., Çaku, A., McQueen, M., Anand,
S. S., Enas, E., Clarke, R., Boffa, M. B., Koschinsky, M., Wang, X., Yusuf, S.,
& null, null. (2019). Lipoprotein(a) Levels and the Risk of Myocardial
Infarction Among 7 Ethnic Groups. Circulation, 139(12), 1472–1482. https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.034311
·2 sure-fire ways to raise Lp(a):
1. Statins: Yeang, C., Hung, M.-Y., Byun, Y.-S., Clopton, P., Yang, X.,
Witztum, J. L., & Tsimikas, S. (2016). Effect of therapeutic interventions
on oxidized phospholipids on apolipoprotein B100 and lipoprotein(a). Journal
of Clinical Lipidology, 10(3), 594–603. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jacl.2016.01.005
2. Healthy diet: Navab Mohamad, Reddy Srinivasa T., Van Lenten Brian J., &
Fogelman Alan M. (2004). Apparent Paradox of Low-Fat “Healthy” Diets Increasing
Plasma Levels of Oxidized Low-Density Lipoprotein and Lipoprotein(a). Arteriosclerosis,
Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology, 24(3), 392–393. https://doi.org/10.1161/01.ATV.0000118014.49565.fc
·Pork and LDL: Stewart, J. W., Kaplan, M. L., & Beitz, D. C.
(2001). Pork with a high content of polyunsaturated fatty acids lowers LDL
cholesterol in women. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 74(2),
179–187. https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/74.2.179
Wooden breast in chickens:
Soglia, F., Mudalal, S., Babini, E., Di Nunzio, M., Mazzoni, M., Sirri, F.,
Cavani, C., & Petracci, M. (2016). Histology, composition, and quality
traits of chicken Pectoralis major muscle affected by wooden breast
abnormality. Poultry Science, 95(3), 651–659. https://doi.org/10.3382/ps/pev353
This is a special episode, which Brian and I are very excited for.
Prof. Brenna is a leading researcher on polyunsaturated fats in child nutrition, who has done both animal and human work demonstrating the importance of a low-linoleic, high DHA diet for human health.
"David Gornoski, Brad Marshall, and Tucker Goodrich get together for an investigative conversation on what exactly is causing the obesity crisis in modern society. What do we make of the idea of stearic acid as dietary fiber? Is reductive stress driving the obesity crisis? Do we get in a state of torpor after consuming linoleic acid? Is more sugar the way to go, as Dr. Ray Peat suggests?
I think these two graphics, from their article "Cultured Oil Health Report" really get to why this is going to be a game-changer.
"How cooking oils turn toxic" shows how superior a low-linoleic acid oil like Cultured Oil is to the alternatives we've been told to use.
It's a game changer, especially for stir frying or sauteing which is a major cause of lung cancer.
And "Susceptibility to oxidation" shows how Cultured Oil is superior to all but the most traditional animal fats. (It's better than lard or duck fat since both those animals are fed high-grain & seed oils diets currently. Fix the feed, and they become a better option.)
What's the reason for this superior performance? It's obvious. "Linoleic acid content of liquid oils" shows Cultured Oil has the lowest linoleic acid content of any available liquid oil, comparable to only coconut oil, which has it's own oxidation issues due to the short-chain fats that comprise that oil.
"In this special nutrition science podcast, David Gornoski and Tucker Goodrich are joined by Jeff Nobbs, co-founder of Zero Acre Farms. The discussion starts off with the realization that seed oils are harmful to our health. Jeff Nobbs and Tucker Goodrich also explain the mission of Zero Acre Farms, the development of cultured/fermented oil, whether cultured oil will be safe for consumption, whether we can feed the world with existing fats, and more."
Brian and I have an interesting discussion with author Jayne Rees Buxton about her new book. She does a fantastic job of going through the evidence for and against a plant-based diet as a prescription for health and environmental salvation, and finds it wanting on both counts.
While "Con" in the title doesn't solely refer to "confidence game"—we have a lengthy discussion about the legal review of the book—it's certainly an important element of this story.
This is an important book looking at the evidence behind the plant-based diet movement, as they are coming for all of us, and want to force us to follow their ideology regardless of our feelings.
I'm mentioned in the book in the discussion about seed oils, btw.
**these are points we mention that I think people might want to read more about, or to explain or correct a point made. I don't inlude material from the book that we discuss, you'll have to get a copy to follow up on that information!
Clark, M. A., Springmann, M., Hill, J., & Tilman, D. (2019). Multiple health and environmental impacts of foods. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 116(46), 23357–23362.
Banta, J. E., Lee, J. W., Hodgkin, G., Yi, Z., Fanica, A., & Sabate, J. (2018). The Global Influence of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church on Diet. Religions, 9(9), 251.
O, ’Hearn Meghan, Lauren, B. N., Wong, J. B., Kim, D. D., & Mozaffarian, D. (2022). Trends and Disparities in Cardiometabolic Health Among U.S. Adults, 1999-2018. Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 80(2), 138–151. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.04.046
"Oatly ads banned by UK watchdog over ‘misleading’ green claims"
There are ~1 million physicians in the U.S. (https://www.statista.com/topics/1244/physicians/#topicHeader__wrapper), according to PCRM, they have 17,000 physician members (see link above), so that's 1.7% of practicing physicians as members. Of course the vast majority of the rest are *also* in favor of responsible medicine, so the name is a bit of a slander.
"Honest Burgers is to convert its all-vegan V Honest site close to London's Leicester Square back to its core concept in July, just six months after launching the spin-off brand."
Brian and I have an engaging chat with famed Paleo Diet advocate Robb Wolf on his recent book 'Sacred Cow', how his own health issues have kept him engaged in continuing to explore the relationship between diet and health, how he's going beyond Paleo with his new enterprise LMNT, and more. I hope you all enjoy!
Somehow I missed this video and podcast
when they came out. I just happened upon them recently, serendipitously (Sanders,
2019, 2020). Brian lists Dr. Klurfeld's credentials as:
"David Klurfeld is the National Program Leader for Human Nutrition in the Agricultural Research Service of the USDA. He was Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition for 6 years and is currently Associate Editor of the American Journal for Clinical Nutrition."
...Dive deeper into the science to see what the research shows when it comes to vegetable oils and inflammation, cholesterol, chronic diseases, and more....
Here’s a look at some of the overarching topics we cover in this episode:
Does consuming seed oils really lead to increased inflammation?
What trials on linoleic acid consumption and migraines showed
Aren’t seed oils better for your cholesterol?
What the Lyon Diet Heart study discovered as the most successful heart disease prevention strategy
How are seed oils connected to heart disease?
What forced the US to ban trans fats and is there any chance it can happen with seed oils next?
Is linoleic acid essential if it’s found naturally in foods?
How Tucker thinks we should approach seed oils
How seed oils sneak into the meat you’re eating
What Dr. Cate Shanahan believes we could have done differently with the Covid-19 pandemic and Tucker’s thoughts on this
Meet the Seed Oil Disrespecter and his wife, Ashley. We talk about how and why they started doing what they are doing, and what they hope to accomplish, with a focus on how avoiding seed oils affected their family health even after eating a mostly healthy diet for many years.
1:02:46 The average amount of linoleic acid in the human diet
1:12:06 Why I don’t eat bacon
1:14:46 Just because a study was conducted a long time ago, doesn’t mean it should be ruled out
1:20:31 Re-evaluation of the traditional diet-heart hypothesis: analysis of recovered data from Minnesota Coronary Experiment (1968-73): https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1246
1:27:16 When low LDL can result in a higher risk of cardiovascular disease
1:28:31 Use of dietary linoleic acid for secondary prevention of coronary heart disease and death: evaluation of recovered data from the Sydney Diet Heart Study and updated meta-analysis: https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.e8707
1:32:16 Mediterranean diet, traditional risk factors, and the rate of cardiovascular complications after myocardial infarction: final report of the Lyon Diet Heart Study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9989963/
1:40:40 The blood test you should consider getting
1:42:55 The idea of “Intralipid”
1:51:00 Tucker’s personal experience with weight loss and dietary changes
"Plus, Tucker Goodrich joins the show to talk about how Christianity birthed scientific progress, what causes diabetes from a nutritional perspective, what kind of weight loss should be alarming, and more."
The video at the link contains both 1/2 hours. Skip past 23 minutes for the second half. It's a radio show, so no video.
A good chat with Tristan Haggard of Primal Edge Health. We got into a few new areas, talked about wheat and wheat poisoning at length, for instance, and got into some details about my own health experiences that I don't think I've covered elsewhere.
This turned out to be quite an interesting interview, much more so than I had anticipated. I think in some ways it's the best interview David and I have done.
"David Gornoski and Tucker Goodrich sit down with Dr. William Li, an internationally renowned physician, scientist, and author of the New York Times bestseller Eat to Beat Disease. The discussion revolves around why we are seeing cancer rates skyrocketing in the US, anti-VEGF treatment for neovascular eye disease, seed oil consumption, the cause of angiogenesis dysregulation, the right diet for a strong immune system, and more."
“EAT TO BEAT DISEASE shows you how to integrate the foods you already love into any diet or health plan to activate your body’s health defense systems —Angiogenesis, Regeneration, the Microbiome, DNA Protection, and Immunity —to fight cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, neurodegenerative disease, autoimmune disease, and other debilitating conditions.”
Back in February, Dr. K, the Seed Oil Disrespecter on Twitter, was contacted by Audrey Carleton, a reporter for the news website VICE. She had some questions about why the seed oil topic had become a 'big thing' in the bitcoin world. He mentioned me as being knowledgeable about the seed oil and health topic, and suggested I reach out to her.
Click to see full discussion.
I did, and we had a nice chat, although it probably went on longer than she was expecting. I've often heard it's wise to record conversations with journalists, and we did so via Zoom, to which she agreed.
We had a pleasant enough conversation, and she listened to me at length (~48 minutes).
I'll not editorialize about the many problems with that article, but the major one is they never addressed the research from institutions like the NIH and the AHA showing that there are credible reasons to think that the benefits of seed oils are oversold, and that there are real reasons to fear harmful effects.
"Misinformation is a two-edged sword in the seed oil debate, however. Figureheads like Shanahan, after all, believe that most mainstream dietary guidance around fat consumption is built on lies, the kind that have quietly fueled America’s major health epidemics for decades. Like Bitcoin itself, the anti-seed oil stance reflects a skepticism of authority, one that is often not unfounded in the least but which can quickly snowball, echoed and amplified online."
It's rather routine at this time for journalists to spread misinformation while pretending to be preventing it, and this is a perfect example of that.
So I am presenting here the full discussion I had with VICE, so you can be the judge yourself of the value of what they elected to leave out while claiming that being concerned about seed oils is "misinformation".
Journalists have editors, and many publications have clear—often unadmitted—editorial biases. I have no particular reason to think that Audrey wrote the bias into this story, so I won't blame her for it. I appreciate the time that she took to speak to me.
I do blame VICE, however, which I think is fair. They printed a biased, misleading article, while ignoring that there are valid scientific reasons to think seed oils are problematic.
I'm glad they left my name out of it.
Podcast
Incidentally, I have decided to start a podcast. Consider this episode 0.
There were 5 or 6 people present, including Dave and Adam.
From this dinner (I had a Reuben: pastrami on rye bread, as I recall) sprang forth the idea of the podcast.
So better late than never, I suppose! More details to follow, but please subscribe (either via YouTube or the RSS feed here.
References
Birch-Johansen, F., Jensen, A., Mortensen, L., Olesen, A. B., & Kjær, S. K. (2010). Trends in the incidence of nonmelanoma skin cancer in Denmark 1978-2007: Rapid incidence increase among young Danish women. International Journal of Cancer, 127(9), 2190–2198. https://doi.org/10.1002/ijc.25411
Black, H. S., Thornby, J. I., Gerguis, J., & Lenger, W. (1992). Influence of Dietary Omega-6, -3 Fatty Acid Sources on the Initiation and Promotion Stages of Photocarcinogenesis. Photochemistry and Photobiology, 56(2), 195–199. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1992.tb02147.x
Lennon, R. P., Lopez, K. C. O., Socha, J. A. M., Montealegre, F. E. G., Chandler, J. W., Sweet, N. N., Hawley, L. A., Smith, D. K., & Sanchack, K. E. (2019). Health Characteristics of the Wayuu Indigenous People. Military Medicine, 184(7–8), e230–e235. https://doi.org/10.1093/milmed/usz021
Mozaffarian, D., Hao, T., Rimm, E. B., Willett, W. C., & Hu, F. B. (2011). Changes in Diet and Lifestyle and Long-Term Weight Gain in Women and Men. New England Journal of Medicine, 364(25), 2392–2404. https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa1014296
Page, I. H., Allen, E. V., Chamberlain, F. L., Keys, A., Stamler, J., & Stare, F. J. (1961). Dietary Fat and Its Relation to Heart Attacks and Strokes. Circulation, 23(1), 133–136. https://doi.org/10.1161/01.CIR.23.1.133
Park, M. K., Li, W.-Q., Qureshi, A. A., & Cho, E. (2018). Fat Intake and Risk of Skin Cancer in U.S. Adults. Cancer Epidemiology and Prevention Biomarkers, 27(7), 776–782. https://doi.org/10.1158/1055-9965.EPI-17-0782
Ramsden, C. E., Zamora, D., Majchrzak-Hong, S., Faurot, K. R., Broste, S. K., Frantz, R. P., Davis, J. M., Ringel, A., Suchindran, C. M., & Hibbeln, J. R. (2016). Re-evaluation of the traditional diet-heart hypothesis: Analysis of recovered data from Minnesota Coronary Experiment (1968-73). BMJ, 353. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.i1246
Reeve, V. E., Matheson, M., Greenoak, G. E., Canfield, P. J., Boehm‐Wilcox, C., & Gallagher, C. H. (1988). Effect of Dietary Lipid on UV Light Carcinogenesis in the Hairless Mouse. Photochemistry and Photobiology, 48(5), 689–696. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1988.tb02882.x
Rose, G. A., Thomson, W. B., & Williams, R. T. (1965). Corn Oil in Treatment of Ischaemic Heart Disease. British Medical Journal, 1(5449), 1531–1533. https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.1.5449.1531
"David Gornoski sits down with Dr. Cate Shanahan, Dr. Ray Peat, Tucker Goodrich, Brad Marshall, and Dr. Petro Dobromylskyj. The conversation revolves around the question of what causes obesity. What explains the correlation between seed oil consumption and rising obesity in America? If obesity is a signaler, what is it saying? Listen to the full episode as these questions and more are explored from different perspectives."
The video at the link contains both hours. Skip past 45 minutes for the second hour. It's a call-in, so no video
"Also in the show, Tucker Goodrich calls in to talk about the coming food crisis and what we can do to prepare. What aspects of our agricultural market do we need to rethink?"
